Sando Owner Defends ‘Pay To Play’ Policy
News posted Wednesday, November 25 2009 at 08:00 AM.
Related: Sandringham Hotel.
The owner of Sydney’s Sandringham Hotel has vehemently defended the venue’s "pay to play" policy, saying that bands who can’t bring in the numbers, shouldn’t be playing gigs.
The venue, colloquially known as “The Sando”, has come under fire recently for charging bands a flat production fee if they fail to reach particular quotas. Acts who don’t draw at least 60 payers to the Sando’s 150-capacity “Old Room” on a Friday night, for example, will have to pay a $200 production fee for use of the room per night. Play the 300-capacity “New Room” on a Friday and you’ll need to draw 120 punters to avoid a $300 charge.
Owner Tony Townsend said the policy has been a success in the five months since its implementation, despite “all sorts of flak” from some quarters of Sydney’s music scene.
“This has worked well now for five months with only four shows not making their targets,” he told M+N in a statement, adding that bands needed to “get serious” about promoting their gigs.
“The attitude that bands do not have a responsibility to draw crowds when they play in a live venue is the reason why the live music scene has been in trouble for some years now. It’s the reason why The Hopetoun and venues like it are shut. If you can't do the numbers, don't do live gigs, or latch onto a [crowd] drawing band to help build your following.”
Townsend said that bands who draw less than the minimum 30 payers for a mid-week gig might as well stick to a rehearsal studio.
“What gives any band that draws 10 people the right to displace a band who can draw 100 people to a venue?” he said. “This is a selfish attitude and just doesn't help anyone, least of all the bands who are working hard at their craft, building a fan base and contributing to the live scene. Bands that draw only a few people, contribute to the demise of the live scene.”
Townsend said other venues in Sydney, including The Annandale, The Caringbah Hotel, The Bald Faced Stag and The Mona Vale Hotel, had been forced to charge production fees plus a percentage of the door to cover shortfalls in costs. But, unlike The Sando, those costs aren’t determinant on quotas, much to the detriment, he said, of Sydney’s live music scene.
“The thresholds should have been introduced a long time ago in all live venues. This way there would be more of them left. The bands have to look at themselves, what product they have, what promo they are doing and [show] a real genuine drive to get people off the couches and in the venue to see them do their stuff ‘live’. Isn't that what a live gig is all about: having people see you perform?”
Townsend was also quick to point out that the Sando’s so-called “pay to play” policy doesn’t necessarily mean a band will be out of pocket if they fail to draw the requisite punters to a gig. On the contrary, he claimed that bands would earn more under the Sando’s quota system than they would at most other venues.
“If you had a show in the small room at The Sando on a Friday or Saturday night (the threshold figure being 60 payers) and brought 65 payers on a $10 door, the bands would walk away with $520,” he said. “If you didn’t break the threshold and did 55 payers, the bands would walk away from The Sando with $320.”
Ultimately, said Townsend, it’s about a band “knowing its limitations”.
“The new venue at the Sando has a Meyer Sound system and 40 cans lightshow and is designed for bands that draw 150-plus people. It costs us $800 to open the door. I would rather use the smaller venue and see the larger room empty than have 30 people in it on a Friday or Saturday night contributing to the demise of the ‘live vibe.’”
The Sandringham Hotel, located in the heart of Newtown, was purchased in 2005 by Townsend, a longtime music industry promoter, manager and agent. It recently underwent an extensive renovation, culminating in the opening of the aforementioned “New Room” upstairs.
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it makes sense for established venues that have to pay high rents.
on the face of it, it sounds greedy and unfair, but really it makes sense.
^^ agreed.
''it's a business, not a charity''
I don't think it's unreasonable.
I think he's negating the role of a decent booker in the pulling crowds thing, though.
A band might have to know its limitations, but a pub should know its punters, or at least which punters it's trying to pull - and book accordingly.
my only real issue with the pay to play rule is that it actually makes it harder for bands to build a fan base, especially bands from outside sydney. a band is not going to be able to build a fan base playing in the ''wrong'' pubs or on the ''wrong'' nights. they have to be playing in the right venues and with the right bands. and yes - the band has a responsibility to advertise, and to know the industry etc so as to play with other bands who will draw a strong crowd etc. but this still means that the industry is somewhat closed out to starting bands who don't have friends who live in the area.
it makes business sense. i just think it's a little mean-spirited, and pessimistic.
boo. bands gotta start somehow. so sydney needs venue(s) even smaller/lower on the ladder than Sando?
I guess the market will decide. If people don't like it, they won't play there.
After what happened on Friday and Saturday night with the Hitmen - I can't help but be cynical and extremely critical of this policy.
what happened mrsjw?
ah.... the same right that allows the venue not to book the band if they do not want them to play at their venue because they are not 'big enough', i guess.
This.
I'm all for shared responsibility rather than putting the entire problem on the bands' shoulders.
yeah. i am interested to know what the venue is doing to promote the shows. and agree with the comments that a booker should be able to put on appropriate shows/bands for their punters. and then publicise them appropriately too.
Yep, as Fez and letterbox point out, this policy just shifts the onus from the venue booker to the bands, which is bullshit. A good booker/venue can offset a night of cutting edge music that might only draw 30 people with a hugely popular act that sells out the next night. That's how most established music venues in Melbourne operate. This way they build a good reputation and cred with bands and dedicated audiences, as well as satisfying their neeed to turn over a profit.
i remember playing there with ghosts of television to maybe 10 people in 2005 or 2006, and we've arguably both gone on the bigger and/or better things...
the point i'm making is in reponse to “What gives any band that draws 10 people the right to displace a band who can draw 100 people to a venue?”
and that point is that every band who can draw 100 people once was a band that drew 10 people. the sandringham is essentially operating a policy of aborting children to make adults.
I'm interested if this is per night/week/month/year. I'm in Melbs, and haven't seen the new Sando, but I'm presuming they're not supplying a mixer/in-house tech?
40 cans (I presume LED, but still) is surely overkill for a 300 capacity room?
Is the room overly specced? I can only presume it is, and that the PA rental is accordingly exorbitant?
I don't agree with policies like The Sando's, and hope we never see them at a (decent) venue in Melbourne. There does have to be some shared responsibility - you could likewise make the argument that the venue/promotor didn't do enough advertising to let my band's thousands (!) of fans know?
Unfortunately I feel its scenarios like this that -
a) differentiate between the live music scene in Sydney and elsewhere in Australia
b) create a culture where musicians and pubs/venues work against each other
They have an in house mixer who owns the PA, Hendrix. If I remember correctly his mixing fee is paid from the $2 per head the venue takes. That's for the big room anyway. Not sure what he charges for PA rental and where that money comes from.
This is exactly what I'm talking about!!!
If a venue wants to be 'business' then fine. I may not agree with them but so be it.
If they, however, try and tell me they're 'supporting the scene' or 'growing local music' or any of that shit I reserve the right to scoff.
Let's face the facts. No band when they start is going to pull many people. And anyone I meet who is genuinely interested in keeping local music alive understands that.
Then you play midweek kittymunroe and get creative about getting your friends there until you build a following. They're talking weekends here.
This statement makes a lot of sense to me...I'm not from around here originally, I don't know heaps of people from around here. It has been a hard slow slog to (a) find other suitable bands to play with and (b) get people along to the shows when you don't know anyone...
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No idea Texaco. We were invited to play from Handsome Young Strangers.
Andy thats a load of bull . Just sent you a pm
So what's the truth then Loz?
Oh Look my mate Ben . Why am I not surprised you've chimmed in after a post of mine ?????
Band didn't have to have supports
Band was offered a higher fee for Sat nights
Was not a Wed night as we do not do reidencies on Wed
Also found out what band it was and they are mighty pissed a private convo was posted and they do not agree with what Andy has put up and was misquoted. They in fact said all was cool with what was offered to them .,
sorry formatting disaster
Corrections--> Band ended up in the wednesday slot after offers of other saturday etc slots by booker didn't work out. When it became apparent the deal with wednesdays was not going to work they canned the shows. Guilty as charged - I must remember to bring a tape recorder next time I get drunk so I can recall conversations to the decimal...
But what I was trying to say is that the Sando - yes that's right I posted it in a thread about the sando for a reason - is apparently not the only place that is trying to reign in the expectations of bands. Venues are less willing to take hold of all the risk of our pop music dreams R&D.
Discuss.
Yeah ok Andy sorry mate you've got it wrong Again . Yes drunkn party convo it seems is terribly wrong . Gee why do I find this surprising ? Dude reckon you might wanna keep those drunk convos to yourself until you actually have it correct .
Hats off to AndyD for fessing up. Plenty of people here wouldn't have the balls to do that.
You just broke the internet.
Anyway the post was in earnest. I welcome corrections but I was relaying info as faithfully as I could - no intent to deceive. Loz being privy to the exact info yourself why don't you tell us the details? I can't, through the fervour, make hide nor hair of your previous posts? I can only go on what I've been told and the story seemed pretty relevant to this thread. I regret not saying ''a certain Oxford st venue'' instead of OAF but then I didn't count on such thin skins in the business either.
Just to set a few things straight, the $2 door fee from the upstairs room goes to Atomic Drop Entertainment who is the main Booker for the Sando.
The P.A / P.A operator and door person is paid for by the Hotel itself.
The above refers to the two upstairs band rooms (large/ small)
If you play downstairs in the front local bar there is an 8 channel mixing desk and P.A which is D.Y.I. This debate is based on bands playing the upstairs area of the hotel.
Please also keep in mind when judging this hotel and the owner Tony Townsend that over $300000 has been spent on fighting in the Courts for the right to operate the hotel as a music venue. He could have just have easily built an open area bistro courtyard up where the new venue is. With a quicker return for profit and a lot less hassle. But he has put his foot and money forth trying to create a pub in Sydney that is at it's heart a music venue. The fight continues and he seems to be almost near the finish line.
As a promoter the addition of penalties for not getting heads through the door of the Sando did not even bother me. The Sando is in a good location in a great town which is supportive of live music. In all the time that I did run and put on shows at the Sando I never would have incurred these penalties and in 90% of the time I was dealing with local and relatively unknown bands.
Promotion isn't rocket science but it does take a certain type of person to do it properly. If your a band starting out get to know the grass roots promoters in the area, and talk to them all. The good ones put together line ups that work and draw people. I have alot of respect for Glenn from Zombie Dog Entertainment & Leyne from Caddence Comotions both hard working. To be on a line up for one of their shows in most cases would be a good night for all involved. But each member of your band must promote you gig as much as they can. Playing to no one is sh*t.
That above being all said, venue owners should be responsible for putting in place people to market and promote the venue be it staff or outsiders, a venue is responsible for it's own reputation. Also Contracted Bookers should be held accountable as to what they do to earn the $2 per head through the door. On a crowd of 150 payers that's $300, quite a lot of money for taking a phone call and making sure the listings in the Hotels drum ad are correct.
Anyway it's a complicated debate and I can understand the views and sides that many people can take. I wrote this to set a little of the mis-information I read here straight as I have had direct dealings with the Sando over some time. And all politics aside it's a pretty cool venue with good sound and vibe in the upstairs rooms.
I wish that was the second post in the thread.
You're not surprised because you know I'll always call you on your ''I know better cos I'm in the industry'' bullshit.
Sando should rephrase the policy to: if less than 120 punters show up bands must pay for their own sound guy/pa hire. Thats actually a better deal than most venues. Shame they got all this negative publicity for no reason at all. Hooray for the Sando!!
Wanna do a gig there in late feb LTD? The awesome Melbourne band the Brutals are coming up round then and I wanna put a night on with them.
Ben,Yeah I know you look forward to 'The Bullshit' .There's not much else happening for you is there?. I really enjoy your 'I'm a writer so I can be a cunt' ones too . We really should have that coffee and catch up . Let me know next time your up and sure feel free to call anytime.
There's no need for that sort of language Loz Vegas. Some of your word choices could have been thought through a little better!.
That's right Loz, my life is empty. Wow, busted.
There is no need to make an exhibition of yourself Mr Butler. Nobody likes a fool.
But it's too late, Ms Troll. Ever-perceptive, Loz has cut me to the quick with her incisive analysis of my psychological deficiencies.
Why would you be so unkind and call me a troll?. If i tell Gilbert he will wallop you one on your little button nose!.